Re: [CCDS Members] [CCD Members] Fahrenheit 11/9 -- Not as hot as hoped

First of all, I'm always the one of the people in my milieu bringing the anti-militarist anti-imperialist message, bringing it in the gentle extremely-skillful way that relates it to my people's immediate concrete circumstances so they will be able to here me, bringing it in the way that, most of the time (Randy has been put out of social situations/organizations for not being willing to ignore this component of our reality) is necessary to actually have any chance of building consciousness here.

I haven't yet seen the film. I'll have travel into PGH to see it. Been so busy here in the de-industrialized zone that my trips to the city have been much less frequent.

I am disappointed to hear that the actual concrete analysis of W VA is off. The public dissemination of that knowledge is so rare & valuable. 

But even taking that into consideration, sounds like Moore is working exactly the message I'm working while de-emphasizing the practical edge of it; that we're doing two things. 1. Defeating an attempt to move our govt into overt fascism and 2. Moving progressiveness into positions of power in order to defeat neoliberalism. People where I live know somethings deeply wrong. And that's mostly how we ot trump. If we allow that deep unconscious working-class knowledge to be linked to racism/homophobia/misogyny, then we are deeply missing our sacred responsibility as leftists. People here listen to me & respect me & seek my counsel exactly because I'm willing to respectfully speak this truth. I have good open honest relationship with Clinton liberals even though I irritate them at times & contradict & bring into focus their often-unconscious imperialist slant, thus causing a rift in the fabric of patriotic feel-good & create cognitive dissonance. But again, that is work that is extremely relational & requires a lot of skill. It's taken me years to get half-way good at it.

I'll acknowledge that kind of gentle relational communication might not be one of Moore's strong points, but at this point some things need said. Maybe Moore's message works well here where I live because he's from a place like this, Flint. trump did not drop on us from the sky. Things happened that paved the way for the hyper-racism of fascism. And the promise of the past glories of imperialism play well to people in a culture that remembers what high-paying jobs were. The "America is already great" counter to trump rings pretty hollow here in the opiod-ridden deindustrialized zone. We ignore this at our own peril.

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 5:12 AM <rjochs@comcast.net> wrote:

The problem with the politics of Mr. Krebiel, Mr. Case and Mr. Moore is nationalism.  None of you seem to care about the primary problem: the political stranglehold of a militarist economy.  The Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans in seeking money and doing the bidding of the military-industrial complex.  Both are subservient to Israel's illegal and racist apartheid settlements which makes 2 billion Muslims our enemies except for the head-chopping, filthy-rich Saudi monarchists. 

 

What makes our situation any different than the 1938 Germans who supported the militarist system for jobs and perks?  Put yourself in their shoes.  What would you have done if you were in Germany in 1938?

 

The only opposition to the 2-party militarist system is the Green Party, for better or worse.  We will not win, but will go down fighting for truth while Democrats cannot tell the truth and win.  And even if Dems do win, they cannot change the military economy.  The most they can do is get a bigger slice of the pie for the 99%.  That is nice, but the flip side is co-optation.  Old Lefties called that "social fascism."

 

Imperialism will be defeated by foreign forces.  Greens will be known as the brave resistance when that happens.  Someone has to tell the truth.  If not us, then who?  Intellectuals should know the difference between nationalism and internationalism.  If otherwise progressive Democrats oppose Israel, they will lose.  The tail wags the dog.  

 

Dems will not take on Lockheed-Martin, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Boeing, the Pentagon, NSA, CIA, DHS, FBI and all their sub-contractors.  That is the Dems' working-class base because other heavy industry is gone.  Moore may be defeatist, but he is realistic.  He should take on the M-I Complex as the source of all ills.  That should be his next movie.

 

Richard Ochs

Baltimore

 

 

From: Members <members-bounces+rjochs=comcast.net@lists.cc-ds.org> On Behalf Of Paul Krehbiel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:50 AM
To: John Case <jcase4218@gmail.com>
Cc: Socialist Economics <socialist-economics@googlegroups.com>; Blogger Socialist Economics <jcase4218.lightanddark@blogger.com>; CCDS-Members <members@lists.cc-ds.org>
Subject: Re: [CCDS Members] [CCD Members] Fahrenheit 11/9 -- Not as hot as hoped

 

We saw Fahrenheit 11/9.  Moore's critique of many evils and looming threats is quite good, but the shortcoming - which is significant, is his failure to give clear direction to viewers and voters about the critical importance of defeating the right in November's elections.  He mentions the elections, but it gets lost in his catalogue of evils which he sees nearly everywhere.  The message is that there is little hope.

He should have had much, much more on the many exciting and important election campaigns across the country where moderate to very progressive candidates, mostly running as Democrats, are challenging right-wing GOP candidates, from Congress to state and local elections.  That is where our attention and activity should be.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2018, at 7:07 AM, John Case <jcase4218@gmail.com> wrote:

I saw Michael Moore's new Fahrenheit 11/9. Moore is a Brilliant political film maker, and his craft gets sharper and more skillful with each film.

 But the politics of the film are questionable. It raises important issuesand focuses on key 'resistance' struggles: the Flint water murder case, the killings in the streets and schools, Trump and the Republican links to fascism, the teachers struggles, the rise of democratic socialist candidacies, and much more. 

 

However, he spends as much time attacking Obama and Hillary as Trump. This is not the Primary anymore, Michael! You ACT like you are following Bernie. But your are not. NONE of the democratic socialist agenda is even ON THE TABLE for discussion if the Dems -- both left and center -- cannot take Congress. If that fails, the struggle is to live, to not get shot, to stay out of war, to deal with death, loss, disasters and despair. Medicare for All will not be heard.

 

Further,  among other suspect or unhelpful assertions, Moore can't refrain from making the AFT as much an adversary of the WV Teachers, as the R gov. and legislature. This is a serious splitting contribution, reminiscent of Moore's friends at Labor Notes addiction to Glorious Defeats. It is  especially regretable at this time where teachers have united MANY previous  divisions and factions through their struggle and still have serious challenges ahead.. Plus, it shows little actual understanding of the WV teacher strike details and dynamics.  

 

 The film wants  to turn out the vote, but not for "corporate dems". Sounds like a perfect recipe for a super-"Glorious Defeats" for both progressive and liberal values, which will then be blamed on union leaders and sell-out liberals. 

What really needs to happen acc to Moore? '"Throw out the whole rotten system that caused all this".

 

But first, let Trump win????? More empty phrase-mongering on abolishing capitalism with fascists on the rise?

 

In WV this film's politics, if grasped by 5% of the voters, will lead to the losses of a US Den Senate seat to aTrumper fascist and labor hater. Is that moving forward or backwards?

 

 

--

John Case
Harpers Ferry, WV

The Enlighten Radio Player Stream, 

Sign UP HERE to get the Weekly Program Notes.

Check out Socialist Economics, the Enlighten Radio website

_______________________________________________
CCDS Members mailing list

CCDS website: http://www.cc-ds.org

CCDS welcomes and encourages the full participation of our members in
this list serve. It is intended for discussion of issues of concern to
our organization and its members, for building our community, for
respectfully expressing our different points of view, all in keeping
with our commitment to building a democratic and socialist society. To
those ends, free and honest discussion of issues and ideas is
encouraged. However, personal attacks on named individuals, carrying on
old vendettas, excessive posts and, especially, statements that are
racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-semitic and/or anti-working class are not
appropriate.

Repeated failure to respect those principles of discussion
may result in exclusion from the list.
Please respect each other and our organization.

Any member of the list who objects to a posting on the list or the
behavior of a particular member should send email describing his or her
concerns to members-owner@lists.cc-ds.org

Post: Members@lists.cc-ds.org
List info and archives: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/members
To Unsubscribe, send email to:
Members-unsubscribe@lists.cc-ds.org
To Unsubscribe, change your email address, your password or your preferences:
  visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/members/paulkrehbiel1970%40gmail.com

You are subscribed as: paulkrehbiel1970@gmail.com

_______________________________________________
CCDS Members mailing list

CCDS website: http://www.cc-ds.org

CCDS welcomes and encourages the full participation of our members in
this list serve. It is intended for discussion of issues of concern to
our organization and its members, for building our community, for
respectfully expressing our different points of view, all in keeping
with our commitment to building a democratic and socialist society. To
those ends, free and honest discussion of issues and ideas is
encouraged. However, personal attacks on named individuals, carrying on
old vendettas, excessive posts and, especially, statements that are
racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-semitic and/or anti-working class are not
appropriate.

Repeated failure to respect those principles of discussion
may result in exclusion from the list.
Please respect each other and our organization.

Any member of the list who objects to a posting on the list or the
behavior of a particular member should send email describing his or her
concerns to members-owner@lists.cc-ds.org

Post: Members@lists.cc-ds.org
List info and archives: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/members
To Unsubscribe, send email to:
Members-unsubscribe@lists.cc-ds.org
To Unsubscribe, change your email address, your password or your preferences:
   visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/members/tinabshannon%40gmail.com

You are subscribed as: tinabshannon@gmail.com

--

Tina B Shannon

Shannon's Brown Bear Daycare & Dayschool

"For apart from inquiry, apart from the praxis, individuals cannot be truly human. Knowledge emerges only through invention and re-invention, through the restless, impatient, continuing, hopeful inquiry human beings pursue in the world, with the world, and with each other." 

― Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed

RE: [CCDS Members] [CCD Members] Fahrenheit 11/9 -- Not as hot as hoped

The problem with the politics of Mr. Krebiel, Mr. Case and Mr. Moore is nationalism.  None of you seem to care about the primary problem: the political stranglehold of a militarist economy.  The Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans in seeking money and doing the bidding of the military-industrial complex.  Both are subservient to Israel's illegal and racist apartheid settlements which makes 2 billion Muslims our enemies except for the head-chopping, filthy-rich Saudi monarchists. 

 

What makes our situation any different than the 1938 Germans who supported the militarist system for jobs and perks?  Put yourself in their shoes.  What would you have done if you were in Germany in 1938?

 

The only opposition to the 2-party militarist system is the Green Party, for better or worse.  We will not win, but will go down fighting for truth while Democrats cannot tell the truth and win.  And even if Dems do win, they cannot change the military economy.  The most they can do is get a bigger slice of the pie for the 99%.  That is nice, but the flip side is co-optation.  Old Lefties called that "social fascism."

 

Imperialism will be defeated by foreign forces.  Greens will be known as the brave resistance when that happens.  Someone has to tell the truth.  If not us, then who?  Intellectuals should know the difference between nationalism and internationalism.  If otherwise progressive Democrats oppose Israel, they will lose.  The tail wags the dog.  

 

Dems will not take on Lockheed-Martin, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Boeing, the Pentagon, NSA, CIA, DHS, FBI and all their sub-contractors.  That is the Dems' working-class base because other heavy industry is gone.  Moore may be defeatist, but he is realistic.  He should take on the M-I Complex as the source of all ills.  That should be his next movie.

 

Richard Ochs

Baltimore

 

 

From: Members <members-bounces+rjochs=comcast.net@lists.cc-ds.org> On Behalf Of Paul Krehbiel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:50 AM
To: John Case <jcase4218@gmail.com>
Cc: Socialist Economics <socialist-economics@googlegroups.com>; Blogger Socialist Economics <jcase4218.lightanddark@blogger.com>; CCDS-Members <members@lists.cc-ds.org>
Subject: Re: [CCDS Members] [CCD Members] Fahrenheit 11/9 -- Not as hot as hoped

 

We saw Fahrenheit 11/9.  Moore's critique of many evils and looming threats is quite good, but the shortcoming - which is significant, is his failure to give clear direction to viewers and voters about the critical importance of defeating the right in November's elections.  He mentions the elections, but it gets lost in his catalogue of evils which he sees nearly everywhere.  The message is that there is little hope.

He should have had much, much more on the many exciting and important election campaigns across the country where moderate to very progressive candidates, mostly running as Democrats, are challenging right-wing GOP candidates, from Congress to state and local elections.  That is where our attention and activity should be.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2018, at 7:07 AM, John Case <jcase4218@gmail.com> wrote:

I saw Michael Moore's new Fahrenheit 11/9. Moore is a Brilliant political film maker, and his craft gets sharper and more skillful with each film.

 But the politics of the film are questionable. It raises important issuesand focuses on key 'resistance' struggles: the Flint water murder case, the killings in the streets and schools, Trump and the Republican links to fascism, the teachers struggles, the rise of democratic socialist candidacies, and much more. 

 

However, he spends as much time attacking Obama and Hillary as Trump. This is not the Primary anymore, Michael! You ACT like you are following Bernie. But your are not. NONE of the democratic socialist agenda is even ON THE TABLE for discussion if the Dems -- both left and center -- cannot take Congress. If that fails, the struggle is to live, to not get shot, to stay out of war, to deal with death, loss, disasters and despair. Medicare for All will not be heard.

 

Further,  among other suspect or unhelpful assertions, Moore can't refrain from making the AFT as much an adversary of the WV Teachers, as the R gov. and legislature. This is a serious splitting contribution, reminiscent of Moore's friends at Labor Notes addiction to Glorious Defeats. It is  especially regretable at this time where teachers have united MANY previous  divisions and factions through their struggle and still have serious challenges ahead.. Plus, it shows little actual understanding of the WV teacher strike details and dynamics.  

 

 The film wants  to turn out the vote, but not for "corporate dems". Sounds like a perfect recipe for a super-"Glorious Defeats" for both progressive and liberal values, which will then be blamed on union leaders and sell-out liberals. 

What really needs to happen acc to Moore? '"Throw out the whole rotten system that caused all this".

 

But first, let Trump win????? More empty phrase-mongering on abolishing capitalism with fascists on the rise?

 

In WV this film's politics, if grasped by 5% of the voters, will lead to the losses of a US Den Senate seat to aTrumper fascist and labor hater. Is that moving forward or backwards?

 

 

--

John Case
Harpers Ferry, WV

The Enlighten Radio Player Stream, 

Sign UP HERE to get the Weekly Program Notes.

Check out Socialist Economics, the Enlighten Radio website

_______________________________________________
CCDS Members mailing list

CCDS website: http://www.cc-ds.org

CCDS welcomes and encourages the full participation of our members in
this list serve. It is intended for discussion of issues of concern to
our organization and its members, for building our community, for
respectfully expressing our different points of view, all in keeping
with our commitment to building a democratic and socialist society. To
those ends, free and honest discussion of issues and ideas is
encouraged. However, personal attacks on named individuals, carrying on
old vendettas, excessive posts and, especially, statements that are
racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-semitic and/or anti-working class are not
appropriate.

Repeated failure to respect those principles of discussion
may result in exclusion from the list.
Please respect each other and our organization.

Any member of the list who objects to a posting on the list or the
behavior of a particular member should send email describing his or her
concerns to members-owner@lists.cc-ds.org

Post: Members@lists.cc-ds.org
List info and archives: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/members
To Unsubscribe, send email to:
Members-unsubscribe@lists.cc-ds.org
To Unsubscribe, change your email address, your password or your preferences:
  visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/members/paulkrehbiel1970%40gmail.com

You are subscribed as: paulkrehbiel1970@gmail.com

Re: [CCD Members] Fahrenheit 11/9 -- Not as hot as hoped

We saw Fahrenheit 11/9.  Moore's critique of many evils and looming threats is quite good, but the shortcoming - which is significant, is his failure to give clear direction to viewers and voters about the critical importance of defeating the right in November's elections.  He mentions the elections, but it gets lost in his catalogue of evils which he sees nearly everywhere.  The message is that there is little hope.

He should have had much, much more on the many exciting and important election campaigns across the country where moderate to very progressive candidates, mostly running as Democrats, are challenging right-wing GOP candidates, from Congress to state and local elections.  That is where our attention and activity should be.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2018, at 7:07 AM, John Case <jcase4218@gmail.com> wrote:

I saw Michael Moore's new Fahrenheit 11/9. Moore is a Brilliant political film maker, and his craft gets sharper and more skillful with each film.

 But the politics of the film are questionable. It raises important issuesand focuses on key 'resistance' struggles: the Flint water murder case, the killings in the streets and schools, Trump and the Republican links to fascism, the teachers struggles, the rise of democratic socialist candidacies, and much more. 

However, he spends as much time attacking Obama and Hillary as Trump. This is not the Primary anymore, Michael! You ACT like you are following Bernie. But your are not. NONE of the democratic socialist agenda is even ON THE TABLE for discussion if the Dems -- both left and center -- cannot take Congress. If that fails, the struggle is to live, to not get shot, to stay out of war, to deal with death, loss, disasters and despair. Medicare for All will not be heard.

Further,  among other suspect or unhelpful assertions, Moore can't refrain from making the AFT as much an adversary of the WV Teachers, as the R gov. and legislature. This is a serious splitting contribution, reminiscent of Moore's friends at Labor Notes addiction to Glorious Defeats. It is  especially regretable at this time where teachers have united MANY previous  divisions and factions through their struggle and still have serious challenges ahead.. Plus, it shows little actual understanding of the WV teacher strike details and dynamics.  

 The film wants  to turn out the vote, but not for "corporate dems". Sounds like a perfect recipe for a super-"Glorious Defeats" for both progressive and liberal values, which will then be blamed on union leaders and sell-out liberals. 

What really needs to happen acc to Moore? '"Throw out the whole rotten system that caused all this".

But first, let Trump win????? More empty phrase-mongering on abolishing capitalism with fascists on the rise?

In WV this film's politics, if grasped by 5% of the voters, will lead to the losses of a US Den Senate seat to aTrumper fascist and labor hater. Is that moving forward or backwards?

--

John Case
Harpers Ferry, WV

The Enlighten Radio Player Stream, 

Sign UP HERE to get the Weekly Program Notes.

Check out Socialist Economics, the Enlighten Radio website

_______________________________________________
CCDS Members mailing list

CCDS website: http://www.cc-ds.org

CCDS welcomes and encourages the full participation of our members in
this list serve. It is intended for discussion of issues of concern to
our organization and its members, for building our community, for
respectfully expressing our different points of view, all in keeping
with our commitment to building a democratic and socialist society. To
those ends, free and honest discussion of issues and ideas is
encouraged. However, personal attacks on named individuals, carrying on
old vendettas, excessive posts and, especially, statements that are
racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-semitic and/or anti-working class are not
appropriate.

Repeated failure to respect those principles of discussion
may result in exclusion from the list.
Please respect each other and our organization.

Any member of the list who objects to a posting on the list or the
behavior of a particular member should send email describing his or her
concerns to members-owner@lists.cc-ds.org

Post: Members@lists.cc-ds.org
List info and archives: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/members
To Unsubscribe, send email to:
Members-unsubscribe@lists.cc-ds.org
To Unsubscribe, change your email address, your password or your preferences:
  visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/members/paulkrehbiel1970%40gmail.com

You are subscribed as: paulkrehbiel1970@gmail.com

Re: [CCDS Members] Fahrenheit 11/9 -- Not as hot as hoped

We saw Fahrenheit 11/9 and ag

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 27, 2018, at 7:07 AM, John Case <jcase4218@gmail.com> wrote:

I saw Michael Moore's new Fahrenheit 11/9. Moore is a Brilliant political film maker, and his craft gets sharper and more skillful with each film.

 But the politics of the film are questionable. It raises important issuesand focuses on key 'resistance' struggles: the Flint water murder case, the killings in the streets and schools, Trump and the Republican links to fascism, the teachers struggles, the rise of democratic socialist candidacies, and much more. 

However, he spends as much time attacking Obama and Hillary as Trump. This is not the Primary anymore, Michael! You ACT like you are following Bernie. But your are not. NONE of the democratic socialist agenda is even ON THE TABLE for discussion if the Dems -- both left and center -- cannot take Congress. If that fails, the struggle is to live, to not get shot, to stay out of war, to deal with death, loss, disasters and despair. Medicare for All will not be heard.

Further,  among other suspect or unhelpful assertions, Moore can't refrain from making the AFT as much an adversary of the WV Teachers, as the R gov. and legislature. This is a serious splitting contribution, reminiscent of Moore's friends at Labor Notes addiction to Glorious Defeats. It is  especially regretable at this time where teachers have united MANY previous  divisions and factions through their struggle and still have serious challenges ahead.. Plus, it shows little actual understanding of the WV teacher strike details and dynamics.  

 The film wants  to turn out the vote, but not for "corporate dems". Sounds like a perfect recipe for a super-"Glorious Defeats" for both progressive and liberal values, which will then be blamed on union leaders and sell-out liberals. 

What really needs to happen acc to Moore? '"Throw out the whole rotten system that caused all this".

But first, let Trump win????? More empty phrase-mongering on abolishing capitalism with fascists on the rise?

In WV this film's politics, if grasped by 5% of the voters, will lead to the losses of a US Den Senate seat to aTrumper fascist and labor hater. Is that moving forward or backwards?

--

John Case
Harpers Ferry, WV

The Enlighten Radio Player Stream, 

Sign UP HERE to get the Weekly Program Notes.

Check out Socialist Economics, the Enlighten Radio website

_______________________________________________
CCDS Members mailing list

CCDS website: http://www.cc-ds.org

CCDS welcomes and encourages the full participation of our members in
this list serve. It is intended for discussion of issues of concern to
our organization and its members, for building our community, for
respectfully expressing our different points of view, all in keeping
with our commitment to building a democratic and socialist society. To
those ends, free and honest discussion of issues and ideas is
encouraged. However, personal attacks on named individuals, carrying on
old vendettas, excessive posts and, especially, statements that are
racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-semitic and/or anti-working class are not
appropriate.

Repeated failure to respect those principles of discussion
may result in exclusion from the list.
Please respect each other and our organization.

Any member of the list who objects to a posting on the list or the
behavior of a particular member should send email describing his or her
concerns to members-owner@lists.cc-ds.org

Post: Members@lists.cc-ds.org
List info and archives: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/members
To Unsubscribe, send email to:
Members-unsubscribe@lists.cc-ds.org
To Unsubscribe, change your email address, your password or your preferences:
  visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/members/paulkrehbiel1970%40gmail.com

You are subscribed as: paulkrehbiel1970@gmail.com

Fahrenheit 11/9 -- Not as hot as hoped

I saw Michael Moore's new Fahrenheit 11/9. Moore is a Brilliant political film maker, and his craft gets sharper and more skillful with each film.

 But the politics of the film are questionable. It raises important issuesand focuses on key 'resistance' struggles: the Flint water murder case, the killings in the streets and schools, Trump and the Republican links to fascism, the teachers struggles, the rise of democratic socialist candidacies, and much more. 

However, he spends as much time attacking Obama and Hillary as Trump. This is not the Primary anymore, Michael! You ACT like you are following Bernie. But your are not. NONE of the democratic socialist agenda is even ON THE TABLE for discussion if the Dems -- both left and center -- cannot take Congress. If that fails, the struggle is to live, to not get shot, to stay out of war, to deal with death, loss, disasters and despair. Medicare for All will not be heard.

Further,  among other suspect or unhelpful assertions, Moore can't refrain from making the AFT as much an adversary of the WV Teachers, as the R gov. and legislature. This is a serious splitting contribution, reminiscent of Moore's friends at Labor Notes addiction to Glorious Defeats. It is  especially regretable at this time where teachers have united MANY previous  divisions and factions through their struggle and still have serious challenges ahead.. Plus, it shows little actual understanding of the WV teacher strike details and dynamics.  

 The film wants  to turn out the vote, but not for "corporate dems". Sounds like a perfect recipe for a super-"Glorious Defeats" for both progressive and liberal values, which will then be blamed on union leaders and sell-out liberals. 

What really needs to happen acc to Moore? '"Throw out the whole rotten system that caused all this".

But first, let Trump win????? More empty phrase-mongering on abolishing capitalism with fascists on the rise?

In WV this film's politics, if grasped by 5% of the voters, will lead to the losses of a US Den Senate seat to aTrumper fascist and labor hater. Is that moving forward or backwards?

--

John Case
Harpers Ferry, WV

The Enlighten Radio Player Stream, 

Sign UP HERE to get the Weekly Program Notes.

Check out Socialist Economics, the Enlighten Radio website

Re: [CCDS Members] Authoritarianism vs democracy

I agree the article is flawed but it calls for a Progressive International a global struggle against the one percent which Links foreign and domestic policy. It avoids American exceptionalism and sees social movements, not states, as the primary forces for change. Sanders statement was supported by one by Varoufakis. Both are advances over neoliberalism like HRC.

Harry Targ

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 25, 2018, at 5:59 AM, John Case <jcase4218@gmail.com> wrote:

Bernie Sanders has published a piece on foreign policy proposing to unite "progressives" under the banner of democracy, and find common ground against  our "authoritarian" adversaries, including Trump, and would-be Trumps, Putin, China, and others, left and right.

sounds good. Very similar to Hillary's policy speech of a week ago, too.

I have my doubts..I am not in the mood to attack China for its democratic failures. That nation  has raised its peoples, and the worlds poor, standard of living faster than any nation in history, . While I am not comfortable with a single party regime, the truth is there is an ocean more I do not know about it than I do. How do I KNOW that a single party cannot be responsive to its people? Some "democracies" are arguably no less, indeed more, corrupt than China. 

Also not interested in going to war of any kind with Vietnam, India, Russia.,EGypt, Israel.  By the way, our Russian guides in  St Petersburg adventure were young and lively and very funny about the foibles of Russian society, but pointed at the great art of the Hermitage depicting the Napoleonic, Viking, and German and American invasions of Russia, and asked: "What is the real meaning of this art?" Nobody, she said, gave the correct answer, which was: "Do not wage war against Russia"

Nor am I interested in overthrowing or undermining regimes that resist domination by foreign billionaire interests. I say simply, in the spirit of internationalism: Lets follow the golden rule of international relations to the extent possible: "Do not demand of your partner concessions you wood not accept in your partner's position".

Further I note a domestic problem with Bernie's "unite against authoritarianism". The most authoritarian episodes in my recollections of US History are: The Revolution, the Civil War, and the New Deal-War Against Fascism eras. I submit, without including, for the moment, the civil rights era, these were also the most progressive eras of our history.

I am not dissing democracy. It has greater power to correct mistakes of ruling classes. But democracy requires 1)security, and 2) values that  define national unity while permitting open contests for power. When both of  those requirements fail, and paralysis persists for generations,  revolutionary means are all that remain. And revolutions are -- at least for their duration -- authoritarian.

--

John Case
Harpers Ferry, WV

The Enlighten Radio Player Stream, 

Sign UP HERE to get the Weekly Program Notes.

Check out Socialist Economics, the Enlighten Radio website

_______________________________________________
CCDS Members mailing list

CCDS website: http://www.cc-ds.org

CCDS welcomes and encourages the full participation of our members in
this list serve. It is intended for discussion of issues of concern to
our organization and its members, for building our community, for
respectfully expressing our different points of view, all in keeping
with our commitment to building a democratic and socialist society. To
those ends, free and honest discussion of issues and ideas is
encouraged. However, personal attacks on named individuals, carrying on
old vendettas, excessive posts and, especially, statements that are
racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-semitic and/or anti-working class are not
appropriate.

Repeated failure to respect those principles of discussion
may result in exclusion from the list.
Please respect each other and our organization.

Any member of the list who objects to a posting on the list or the
behavior of a particular member should send email describing his or her
concerns to members-owner@lists.cc-ds.org

Post: Members@lists.cc-ds.org
List info and archives: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/members
To Unsubscribe, send email to:
Members-unsubscribe@lists.cc-ds.org
To Unsubscribe, change your email address, your password or your preferences:
  visit: https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/options/members/targ%40purdue.edu

You are subscribed as: targ@purdue.edu

Authoritarianism vs democracy

Bernie Sanders has published a piece on foreign policy proposing to unite "progressives" under the banner of democracy, and find common ground against  our "authoritarian" adversaries, including Trump, and would-be Trumps, Putin, China, and others, left and right.

sounds good. Very similar to Hillary's policy speech of a week ago, too.

I have my doubts..I am not in the mood to attack China for its democratic failures. That nation  has raised its peoples, and the worlds poor, standard of living faster than any nation in history, . While I am not comfortable with a single party regime, the truth is there is an ocean more I do not know about it than I do. How do I KNOW that a single party cannot be responsive to its people? Some "democracies" are arguably no less, indeed more, corrupt than China. 

Also not interested in going to war of any kind with Vietnam, India, Russia.,EGypt, Israel.  By the way, our Russian guides in  St Petersburg adventure were young and lively and very funny about the foibles of Russian society, but pointed at the great art of the Hermitage depicting the Napoleonic, Viking, and German and American invasions of Russia, and asked: "What is the real meaning of this art?" Nobody, she said, gave the correct answer, which was: "Do not wage war against Russia"

Nor am I interested in overthrowing or undermining regimes that resist domination by foreign billionaire interests. I say simply, in the spirit of internationalism: Lets follow the golden rule of international relations to the extent possible: "Do not demand of your partner concessions you wood not accept in your partner's position".

Further I note a domestic problem with Bernie's "unite against authoritarianism". The most authoritarian episodes in my recollections of US History are: The Revolution, the Civil War, and the New Deal-War Against Fascism eras. I submit, without including, for the moment, the civil rights era, these were also the most progressive eras of our history.

I am not dissing democracy. It has greater power to correct mistakes of ruling classes. But democracy requires 1)security, and 2) values that  define national unity while permitting open contests for power. When both of  those requirements fail, and paralysis persists for generations,  revolutionary means are all that remain. And revolutions are -- at least for their duration -- authoritarian.

--

John Case
Harpers Ferry, WV

The Enlighten Radio Player Stream, 

Sign UP HERE to get the Weekly Program Notes.

Check out Socialist Economics, the Enlighten Radio website

Sanders: A New Authoritarian Axis Demands an International Progressive Front

A New Authoritarian Axis Demands an International Progressive Front

We must take the opportunity to reconceptualize a genuinely progressive global order based on human solidarity, an order that recognizes that every person on this planet shares a common humanity, that we all want our children to grow up healthy, to have a good education, have decent jobs, drink clean water, breathe clean air and live in peace

by

Bernie Sanders

 71 Comments

Our job is to reach out to those in every corner of the world who share these values, and who are fighting for a better world. (Photo: Sally Prevost/flickr/cc)

There is a global struggle taking place of enormous consequence. Nothing less than the future of the planet – economically, socially and environmentally – is at stake.

At a time of massive wealth and income inequality, when the world's top 1% now owns more wealth than the bottom 99%, we are seeing the rise of a new authoritarian axis.

While these regimes may differ in some respects, they share key attributes: hostility toward democratic norms, antagonism toward a free press, intolerance toward ethnic and religious minorities, and a belief that government should benefit their own selfish financial interests. These leaders are also deeply connected to a network of multi-billionaire oligarchs who see the world as their economic plaything.

These leaders are also deeply connected to a network of multi-billionaire oligarchs who see the world as their economic plaything.

Those of us who believe in democracy, who believe that a government must be accountable to its people, must understand the scope of this challenge if we are to effectively confront it.

It should be clear by now that Donald Trump and the rightwing movement that supports him is not a phenomenon unique to the United States. All around the world, in Europe, in Russia, in the Middle East, in Asia and elsewhere we are seeing movements led by demagogues who exploit people's fears, prejudices and grievances to achieve and hold on to power.

This trend certainly did not begin with Trump, but there's no question that authoritarian leaders around the world have drawn inspiration from the fact that the leader of the world's oldest and most powerful democracy seems to delight in shattering democratic norms.

Three years ago, who would have imagined that the United States would stay neutral between Canada, our democratic neighbor and second largest trading partner, and Saudi Arabia, a monarchic, client state that treats women as third-class citizens? It's also hard to imagine that Israel's Netanyahu government would have moved to pass the recent "nation state law", which essentially codifies the second-class status of Israel's non-Jewish citizens, if Benjamin Netanyahu didn't know Trump would have his back.

All of this is not exactly a secret. As the US continues to grow further and further apart from our longtime democratic allies, the US ambassador to Germany recently made clear the Trump administration's support for rightwing extremist parties across Europe.

In addition to Trump's hostility toward democratic institutions we have a billionaire president who, in an unprecedented way, has blatantly embedded his own economic interests and those of his cronies into the policies of government.

Other authoritarian states are much farther along this kleptocratic process. In Russia, it is impossible to tell where the decisions of government end and the interests of Vladimir Putin and his circle of oligarchs begin. They operate as one unit. Similarly, in Saudi Arabia, there is no debate about separation because the natural resources of the state, valued at trillions of dollars, belong to the Saudi royal family. In Hungary, far-right authoritarian leader Viktor Orbán is openly allied with Putin in Russia. In China, an inner circle led by Xi Jinping has steadily consolidated power, clamping down on domestic political freedom while it aggressively promotes a version of authoritarian capitalism abroad.

We must understand that these authoritarians are part of a common front. They are in close contact with each other, share tactics and, as in the case of European and American rightwing movements, even share some of the same funders.

We must understand that these authoritarians are part of a common front. They are in close contact with each other, share tactics and, as in the case of European and American rightwing movements, even share some of the same funders. The Mercer family, for example, supporters of the infamous Cambridge Analytica, have been key backers of Trump and of Breitbart News, which operates in Europe, the United States and Israel to advance the same anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim agenda. Republican megadonor Sheldon Adelson gives generously to rightwing causes in both the United States and Israel, promoting a shared agenda of intolerance and illiberalism in both countries.

The truth is, however, that to effectively oppose rightwing authoritarianism, we cannot simply go back to the failed status quo of the last several decades. Today in the United States, and in many other parts of the world, people are working longer hours for stagnating wages, and worry that their children will have a lower standard of living than they do.

Our job is to fight for a future in which new technology and innovation works to benefit all people, not just a few. It is not acceptable that the top 1% of the world's population owns half the planet's wealth, while the bottom 70% of the working age population accounts for just 2.7% of global wealth.

Together governments of the world must come together to end the absurdity of the rich and multinational corporations stashing over $21tn in offshore bank accounts to avoid paying their fair share of taxes and then demanding that their respective governments impose an austerity agenda on their working families.

It is not acceptable that the fossil fuel industry continues to make huge profits while their carbon emissions destroy the planet for our children and grandchildren.

It is not acceptable that the fossil fuel industry continues to make huge profits while their carbon emissions destroy the planet for our children and grandchildren.

It is not acceptable that a handful of multinational media giants, owned by a small number of billionaires, largely control the flow of information on the planet.

It is not acceptable that trade policies that benefit large multinational corporations and encourage a race to the bottom hurt working people throughout the world as they are written out of public view.

It is not acceptable that, with the cold war long behind us, countries around the world spend over $1tn a year on weapons of destruction, while millions of children die of easily treatable diseases.

In order to effectively combat the rise of the international authoritarian axis, we need an international progressive movement that mobilizes behind a vision of shared prosperity, security and dignity for all people, and that addresses the massive global inequality that exists, not only in wealth but in political power.

Such a movement must be willing to think creatively and boldly about the world that we would like to see. While the authoritarian axis is committed to tearing down a post-second world war global order that they see as limiting their access to power and wealth, it is not enough for us to simply defend that order as it exists now.

We must look honestly at how that order has failed to deliver on many of its promises, and how authoritarians have adeptly exploited those failures in order to build support for their agenda. We must take the opportunity to reconceptualize a genuinely progressive global order based on human solidarity, an order that recognizes that every person on this planet shares a common humanity, that we all want our children to grow up healthy, to have a good education, have decent jobs, drink clean water, breathe clean air and live in peace.

Our job is to reach out to those in every corner of the world who share these values, and who are fighting for a better world.

In a time of exploding wealth and technology, we have the potential to create a decent life for all people. Our job is to build on our common humanity and do everything that we can to oppose all of the forces, whether unaccountable government power or unaccountable corporate power, who try to divide us up and set us against each other. We know that those forces work together across borders. We must do the same.

--

John Case
Harpers Ferry, WV

The Enlighten Radio Player Stream, 

Sign UP HERE to get the Weekly Program Notes.

Check out Socialist Economics, the Enlighten Radio website