Peoples World
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jwojcik@peoplesworld.org
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You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.
I don't normally come into these conversations (I don't know how I was added onto this list to be honest), but since I have a moment I just want to say that cuss words aside, I agree with Stewart. Trump needs to be defeated. And for those who think they can afford to vote for Jill Stein in states where "it doesn't really matter" please read this great article by John Bachtell that explains why that's not the case.Have a good week.-CKR--On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 6:35 AM, Richard Ochs <rjochs@comcast.net> wrote:Rebel flags are nothing compared with 7 million homeless Iraqis, not to speak of thousands of dead Afghans, Yeminis and Palestinians with other targets waiting, creating more enemies and endless war. We can combat the domestic injustice you speak of. But who will stop US militarism and how is that to be done?
From: Stewart Acuff [mailto:acuff.stewart@gmail.co
m ]
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:47 AM
To: Richard Ochs <rjochs@comcast.net>
Cc: Gary Hicks <hicksgary6770@yahoo.com>; PWW Editors <editors@peoplesworld.org>; Blogger Socialist Economics <jcase4218.lightanddark@blogger.com >; John Wojcik <jwojcik@peoplesworld.org>; Socialist Economics <socialist-economics@googlegroups.com >; CCDS-Members <members@lists.cc-ds.org>
Subject: Re: [CCDS Members] [socialist-econ] Sam Webb doesn't get Robert Reich [feedly]
Please....save us the fuckin lecture on how easy the labor movement has it In America or how African-Americans are confused about their electoral options or what Sheriff Arpaio did to not only undocumented immigrants but also to Latinos whose families created Arizona. People in struggle don't have the option of being cavalier in this election. No we don't have Cristall Nacht but we do have Brown Shirts wrapped in Rebel battle flags. Wake the fuck up.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:20 AM, "Richard Ochs" <rjochs@comcast.net> wrote:I am a socialist for Jill Stein.
With all due respect and grateful for this discussion, I think the fear of Bozo Trump is way out of proportion. I believe he is the last gasp of a dying culture, an idiot who attracts idiots and a paper tiger who will disappear in humiliation after his defeat. The US today is in no way comparable to 1936 Germany. They had Mein Kampf manifesto. The US has nothing of the sort. They had brown shirts and Crystal Nacht. We have nothing of the sort. They had a serious depression. We don't have soup lines stretching around the block yet. They had humiliating debt service, that is, permanent economic slavery, to WWI reparations. The US has economic power. They had violent Nazi gangs and a mostly compliant minority ethnic scape goat. We have Black Lives Matter, Latino activists, Sanderistas and allies who outnumber the racist activists and we are aggressive in the streets, not being intimidated or hurt by racists. The police violence is being defeated in the streets as shown by the Federal investigation of the Baltimore police, obviously to preempt more uprisings. Those leftists who are willing to overlook Killary's dangers out of fear of Trump's presumed racist, classist power, are doing a disservice to progress. Why should we run scared? That concedes power to them that they don't really have. I am thinking of Henny Penny. Even if Trumps wins, he will not be able to govern, having too many enemies, even in his own party. I am more afraid of Killary. Trump in no way has anywhere near the power of Hitler.
If we are concerned about the multi-national working class, it is imperative that we oppose a proven pro-war candidate, Hillary Clinton. First and foremost, if we support working class internationalism, we must stop these endless wars. The labor movement must be internationalist. International solidarity absolutely requires the working class in the oppressor nation to unequivocally oppose wars upon other peoples. That means oppose proven pro-war candidates.
If our labor movement is not genuinely internationalist, then it is nationalist. What is nationalism? It is when people choose to benefit people in their own country at the expense of people in oppressed countries. We should not support a proven pro-war candidate in return for better Supreme Court appointments, for instance. We should not support a proven pro-war candidate in return for pro-labor laws. And we should not support a proven pro-war candidate in return for voting rights and women's' reproductive rights. We should not seek to benefit by the deaths of thousands of innocent women, children and men. True internationalism means to be willing to sacrifice for the greater good all peoples.
Trump and Clinton are oppressive in different ways. Some say that Trump's overt racism will unleash more racist attacks. On the contrary, Trump and his minions are being confronted everywhere they go by Black Lives Matter and allies. Police brutality, which existed before Trump's campaign, is being combatted successfully in the streets of America, and we are winning. The police are on the defensive. We are getting organized and giving no quarter. We are stronger than Trump's racists and do not need to be afraid of them. Our demonstrations are bigger than theirs. Fear mongering about Trump's racism is defeatist.
But even if Trumpsters were stronger than us, the death and destruction of U.S. foreign wars upon millions of innocent people is not comparable to racial violence in the U.S. Imagine: seven million Iraqis lost their homes. Seven million! In a war supported by Hillary Clinton. She is an unrepentant supporter of war criminals and ready to do more. Are we really ready to trade the lives of so many innocent peoples just to have an easier time here at home? Are we that selfish? I hope not. Americans who would trade away foreign lives for an easier time do not deserve an easier time.
Vote for peace and justice. Vote internationalist. Vote for Jill Stein. Then have faith in the power of the people in the streets, regardless of who gets elected. But know this: if Clinton wins, there will be endless wars and her supporters will get very quiet, just like Obama's supporters remained quiet during his 7 years of wars, torture and drone assassinations.
Richard Ochs
From: Members [mailto:members-bounces+rjochs
=comcast.net@lists.cc-ds.org ] On Behalf Of Stewart Acuff
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:27 PM
To: Gary Hicks <hicksgary6770@yahoo.com>
Cc: PWW Editors <editors@peoplesworld.org>; Blogger Socialist Economics <jcase4218.lightanddark@blogger.com >; John Wojcik <jwojcik@peoplesworld.org>; Socialist Economics <socialist-economics@googlegroups.com >; CCDS-Members <members@lists.cc-ds.org>
Subject: Re: [CCDS Members] [socialist-econ] Sam Webb doesn't get Robert Reich [feedly]
I cannot believe I'm reading this stupid shit from those who purport to be on the left. You are fucking delusional. What will you do? Sit out the election? Are you stone fuckin crazy? Trump will destroy organized labor with national right to work. Is that what you want! Trumps already promised to cut SS, Medicare and Medicaid. Do you want that? Do you want a natl deportation force? More police violence? Destruction of public sector collective bargaining? More war? Trump with the nuclear codes? It is clear that you hate trade unionists and organizers like me. I can't wait to see the vitriol this post is greeted with. But if you can't take a stand against the obvious racism and bigotry of Trump and his party built on racism and join mass organizations of labor, ALL African-Americans, Latinos, women, lgbt people and environmentalists, then just what the fuck good are you. You are the embodiment of privilege. Kiss my Tennessee workers ass.
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:46 PM, Gary Hicks <hicksgary6770@yahoo.com> wrote:John
At the risk of sounding cruel..... The Germans had a Socialist and a Communist party both of whom followed the very bad advice of their respective internationals, of which they were members, and made the political error of not following the lead of the Communists in Italy a decade earlier. The Italian comrades fought. When Mussolini came to power they built an extensive underground and didn't get decimated like their German comrades.
" Mussolini kept killing communists UNTIL there were three million of them." It was probably the Italians whom Dimitrov had in mind when he suggested in 1935.... that if you're not fighting fascism, then you're enabling its accession to power.
In our country, there are sections of left leadership who, lacking parties of combativeness, dream of the Democratic Party playing that role. Not a good space to be in with the boozhwah choices available. Like Brecht said.... If you're laughing then you haven't heard the news.
Gary
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, John Wojcik <jwojcik@peoplesworld.org> wrote:I don't take credit for the quip about imagination. It's a famous Mark Twain quote, Twain being a great writer out of the progressive tradition in our country. I just think that the danger of a Trump election is very real as are the disasters that are likely to follow his election. If the socialists and communists in Germany had been able to yield a bit on some of their respective hard positions visa vis "reality" in that country prior to 1933 the world might have avoided the worst of Hitler.
John Wojcik, editor in chief,
Peoples World
773 446 9920 Ext. 201
jwojcik@peoplesworld.org
www.peoplesworld.org
You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.
On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Ellen Schwartz <ellen@nicetechnology.com> wrote:
On Sep 5, 2016, at 12:18 PM, Gary Hicks via Members <members@lists.cc-ds.org> wrote:John
While your quip about eyesight and imagination is relevant, at the end of the day.... it's not what we don't know. It's all about what we know that AIN'T SO. And we've been operating off of this knowledge for way, way too long.
I have lost count of all of the times in past years that I've heard the arguments about that terrifying ultra right and the promises of more political breathing space... under a Jimmy, who promulgated the economic mess that brought Ronnie to power; or Bill, who gave us the Effective Death Penalty Act and the Personal Responsibility (welfare reform) Act.....causing me to imagine....for a hot minute!...that Nixon was looking good......
Or how about Barack (and yes we know of his accomplishments, paraded in the pages of our press... they needn't be defended here!) who gave us Hillary and all of her international policies, gave us "Fast n Furious" Eric whose cute arms games with the Mexican Drug Cartels have cost countless lives. Or again Eric who really revved up immigrant deportations like there was no tomorrow. And indeed for a number of deportees there no longer is, thanks to the gang violence that causes this immigration in the first place. And then there is Hillary of Benghazi and Emails that I would be afraid to read for fear that I would know too much. And she's our next Gamechanger Apparent??? Jesus wept!
My understanding of all this is that when you play time and again on the same suppositions but expect a different outcome.... It's called Madness. Let's begin to call the real things we see in this world by their rightful names. Communists have a reputation for being able to do this and then act upon what we see..... based upon what we know that in actuality IS SO.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Per Fagereng <phantom@hevanet.com> wrote:Sounds great, but it's your educated guess about the future. It's also quite possible that Clinton would take the nation to war. I base this on all the neo-cons who are supporting her. If she names Michele Flournoy to run the Pentagon and Victoria Nuland as secretary of state that's bad news.
Another war, besides killing a lot of real people, would wreck any progressive agenda at home.
Per Fagereng
From: John Wojcik
Sent: Monday, September 5, 2016 9:54 AM
To: Per Fagereng
Cc: Ellen Schwartz ; Stewart Acuff ; Socialist Economics ; Blogger Socialist Economics ; PWW Editors ; CCDS-Members
Subject: Re: [CCDS Members] [socialist-econ] Sam Webb doesn't get Robert Reich [feedly]
For all the talk about how bad the system is we need to get down to brass tacks. Hillary Clinton must become the next president of the United States. She is running with the support of a broad real-life movement of labor and its many allies. The Democratic platform, heavily influenced by that movement, is the most progressive platform the Dems have ever put forward. Clinton, who would be the first woman president, is running against someone who epitomizes the worst of this system including rule by the 1 percent and the male supremacy used to perpetuate that rule.Clinton's election will give space to grow to all the diverse movements backing her election. Trump's election would severely weaken all those movements and put the Supreme Court in the hands of people who would crush labor, civil and human rights. All the sectarian b s aside, a Clinton victory will be a blow against racism and discrimination and a victory for the people - it will be a repudiation of the hate put forward by Donald Trump.
John Wojcik, editor in chief,
Peoples World
773 446 9920 Ext. 201
jwojcik@peoplesworld.org
www.peoplesworld.org
You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.
On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Per Fagereng <phantom@hevanet.com> wrote:
Seems clear to me that the lousy choices are cooked up by a really rotten political system. And this is the so-called democracy that the US keeps pushing on the rest of the world.
Per Fagereng
From: Ellen Schwartz
Sent: Monday, September 5, 2016 7:50 AM
To: Stewart Acuff
Subject: Re: [CCDS Members] [socialist-econ] Sam Webb doesn't get Robert Reich [feedly]
So Stewart, "no" on Reich (in a not-foaming-at-the-mouth kind of way) and yes on Hillary? Or, I like "H Clinton" better -- calling the woman candidate by her first name, and The Donald by his last is making me a tad uncomfortable, but that's another issue. Not yours. Back to Reich, Webb, and the CCDS, I've lost track of who is on what team. There are anti-HClintonites, and pro-HClinton or at least we have to vote for her-ites. And some of them are anti PWW and some are pro-PWW, and some are anti-each other.
I think the ruling class is throwing worse and worse choices (that should be "choices") at us, deliberately, as it is likely more people are realizing that Mrs Clinton stands for Capitalism rampant on a field of bombed-out cities. The Republican candidate is always presented as a Nazi, or religious fanatic, or person who will make abortions illegal again. Now we have in The Donald a real nutcase, but Mrs Clinton is a real imperialist. Those are not choices!
On Sep 5, 2016, at 7:18 AM, Stewart Acuff <acuff.stewart@gmail.com> wrote:I am glad that Robert Reich is mostly writing from a progressive perspective these days. But he continues to criticize H Clinton in a way that is not helpful to her winning the election. That should be troublesome to all who know we must defeat Trump. I know Reich personally. He was the principal proponent of rebuilding the economy on hi tech with de industrialization (see his book The Insurgent Liberal). Reich WAS the leading Bill Clinton surrogate on NAFTA. He and I argued about NAFTA at a small dinner in Atlanta where he ended the discussion abruptly. I am not aware that Reich has ever argued that strengthening the labor movement is critical to improving wages and quality of life and the economy.
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 5, 2016, at 9:56 AM, J Thomas Riggins <jtr2@nyu.edu> wrote:Compared to the PW editorial. based on a rational criticism of Sam Webb's article, Case's reply anounts to a personal rant and ad hominem attack on Reich -- he doesn't get invited to parties so let's reject his ideas -- he isn't a "team player" how dare he have independent thoughts, etc. It's good to defend your friends but a silly emotional defense does the more harm than good -- it indicates their ideas can't be defended on rational grounds.--tr
On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 7:07 PM, Norma Harrison <normaha@pacbell.net> wrote:
Was the BClinton win a victory?
(will it be any kind of a win when-if Hillary wins in Nov – all the invading by treaty and bombs…?)
Norma
From: Members [mailto:members-bounces+normah
a =pacbell.net@lists.cc-ds.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Acuff Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 5:19 PM To: John Case jcase4218@gmail.com Cc: Socialist Economics <socialist-economics@googlegroups.com >; Blogger Socialist Economics <jcase4218.lightanddark@blogger.com >; PWW Editors <editors@peoplesworld.org>; CCDS-Members members@lists.cc-ds.org Subject: Re: [CCDS Members] [socialist-econ] Sam Webb doesn't get Robert Reich [feedly]
Thanks, John, for this clear and strong defense of our friend, Sam. We have an election to win in November. It is not a referendum. The other candidate on the ballot is the hero of neo-Nazis and unrepentant Confederates, sexists, bigots of all kind, Donald Trump. The stakes for this country and the world could not be more high--either moving forward or turning or turning the governance of the nation over to those seemingly solely motivated by hatred of the other and love of a past in their mind dominated by slavery and genocide.
I strongly supported My friend Bernie and will do it again if ever given the chance. But Bernie is not on the ballot. I supported Rev. Jesse Jackson in 1988 and Tom Harkin in 1992, but they weren't on the general election ballots. I worked my ass off for Dukakis and Bill Clinton. And I'm working hard for Hillary.
Elections are won with passion, will, strategy and money.
Elections are not won with dithering. I salute my friends, John and Sam, for knowing how to win and refusing to act as if they live in a world and universe that doesn't exist.
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 3, 2016, at 8:34 AM, John Case <jcase4218@gmail.com> wrote:I get Robert Reich -- a social democrat (that's not a negative in this context) with a big ego and a longstanding grievance against both Clintons for being fired as Labor Secretary by Bill for not being a team player. He does not get invited to Clinton parties or events anymore. If I read the news right, he was not exactly a team player with Bernie either: first he says (on the Clinton endorsement) he will respect whatever Sanders decides -- then -- when Sanders endorses Clinton, Reich publicly criticizes him for it! Typical crappy team player. If you hang your hat on Reich, you will be disappointed.
Hillary was to the left of her husband from the beginning. ON health care, on poverty, on women, on children. She is a politician who listens, and changes her mind based on evidence: something some of her critics could take some fucking time to learn. She is, like Bill, and like Obama, also a politician focused on winning, not posturing for the narcissistic mirrors.
I did not agree with Sam Webb's skeptical, critical stance on the Sanders campaign. But then I know Bernie Sanders and his history well. I KNOW he is not a splitter. But most out side northern New England did not know him well.
Between the working class and progressive .supporters of Sanders, and the working class and progressive supporters of Clinton, there is a majority, if it can be organized and united, ready to reverse austerity, inequality, racism, and hold back from the slippery slopes that can lead to world war.
Any effort that seeks to divide this unity -- such as the reprehensible, dogma drenched, posts of Rick Nagin -- should be sanctioned.
Reich is a friend, even if unreliable
Sam is a much better friend.
John Case
Sam Webb doesn't get Robert Reich
http://peoplesworld.org/sam-webb-doesn-t-get-robert-reich/
As supporters of Hillary Clinton, we disagree with some of the assertions and implications in Sam Webb's opinion piece, Robert Reich on Hillary Clinton: too smug, too sexist, which is Sam's critique of a Robert Reich blog. For example, he says that "Hillary-hating ... is nearly a national pastime" and implies that Hillary Clinton herself did not play a key role in the Clinton Administration.
If hating Hillary were truly a "national pastime," we supporters might get discouraged. However, we are bolstered by opinion polls from around the country that show Hillary is, for the most part, ahead of Donald Trump.
In taking issue with Reich, Sam implies that Hillary was less than an equal partner in the Clinton Administration with statements such as "Reich ... assumes that what Bill did, Hillary will do. In other words, she has to not only pay for the sins of her husband, but, as a dutiful woman and wife, she is programmed to repeat them."
By implying that Hillary, herself, separately and as an individual did not play a leading, responsible role in the Clinton Administration Sam is actually discounting one of the most important items on her resume and one of the reasons we believe she is so well prepared to be President.
Reich worked in the Clinton Administration. He saw firsthand that what "Bill did" Hillary in fact, "did," too.
No one we know says Hillary Clinton "has to pay for the sins of her husband." She, herself, in all her speeches takes full responsibility for the central role she played in Bill's Administration.
To deny that she was an equal partner is to deny her credit for efforts such as trying to establish universal health care.
Is Sam trying to discourage people from supporting Clinton? We don't think so. We think he is shadow boxing a specter he calls "some" on the left and that he did not think through the possible impact of what he wrote.
As an example, he states "Reich (and some others on the left) ... are far more likely to critique - at times blast - [Clinton]. I guess they think that to do otherwise might leave them open to criticism from others on the left, thereby tarnishing what is most precious to them - their progressive and radical credentials."
Sam presents no evidence for "guessing" that Robert Reich does not write what he really thinks or that Reich is pandering to the left. For that matter, Sam does not say who exactly are the "some others on the left."
Without evidence for Sam's claim, there is no way to evaluate it. However we doubt that Reich feels a need to protect his "credentials," radical or otherwise. Moreover, as a nationally known liberal thinker he has never, to our knowledge, identified himself as a "radical."
Along with mislabeling Reich as a "radical," Sam misrepresents him. Contrary to Sam's assertion, nowhere in his piece does Reich lock "Hillary into a tightly constructed political category from which he allows her no space to escape."
On the contrary, Reich is giving Hillary advice he thinks she needs to win. He obviously thinks Hillary is flexible enough to make changes. Furthermore, in other pieces he's written, Reich has fully described how the Clinton campaign has changed in ideas and tone.
Sam seems to take the approach that the only good Hillary supporter is a Hillary-right-or-wrong supporter. But, to paraphrase one of the best known quotes in American history, Reich believes in "Hillary right or wrong. If right, to keep her right, if wrong to make her right."
Furthermore, Sam uses ad hominin attacks against Reich, accusing him of being "sexist" and "smug." Those characterizations are not really descriptive, we think, of the arguments made by Reich.
Sam also says "Reich brings no evidence to bear on his claim that Hillary is tacking to the right."
Perhaps Reich assumes his readers already have some "evidence" of that. He might be thinking that they see the newspapers or listen to the news on TV or radio or see it on the Internet. In recent weeks, among other things, Hillary has asked Henry Kissinger and George W. Bush's former Director of National Intelligence, John Negroponte, for their endorsements.
The media has also widely reported that Hillary is courting "moderate" voters.
Is there something "wrong with this?" Sam asks.
Reich's position is that formulating a strategy to reach "moderate" voters is counter-productive because, Reich says, "There are no longer 'moderates.' There's no longer a 'center.' There's authoritarian populism (Trump) or democratic populism (which had been Bernie's 'political revolution,' and is now up for grabs)."
Reich presents evidence to back up his claim. Even though one might question Reich's conclusion, as supporters of Hillary, we feel we must carefully consider those conclusions. After all, Reich is a leading Hillary supporter and an experienced political campaigner. His opinion matters when we are considering tactics that will be useful in the fight to get her elected.
Reich says in his piece that he's worried that Hillary Clinton does not get that the "biggest divide in American politics is no longer between the right and the left."
Sam assures us that "The biggest divide - and Hillary clearly understands this well - has never been between the right and left." However, he does not tell us how he knows what Hillary does or does not understand.
Reich, on the other hand, is abundantly qualified for describing the ideas and attitudes of both Clintons. He knew them both during their college years and has remained friends ever since.
He says, as we stated above, that he's worried that Hillary doesn't get that the "biggest divide in American politics is ... between the anti-establishment and the establishment."
Sam agrees, "the establishment/anti-establishme
nt idea has increasingly fractured U.S. politics and shapes popular thinking." Therefore, one would assume that Sam would urge Clinton to zero in on this "popular thinking." That's what candidates do to win elections.
But Sam strongly implies that instead of doing what needs to be done to win, Hillary is somehow adhering to Sam's personal belief that "the main political division ... is between right-wing extremism on the one side and a broad, diverse, multi-class people's movement on the other."
Sam seems to think there's a difference between what he calls a "people's movement" and what Reich calls a movement for "democratic populism."
We think that the difference between the two formulations is mainly a rhetorical one, not a real one. But in election campaigns, language means a lot.
Reich's formulation may well help lead Hillary to victory in November. On the other hand, Sam's could lessen enthusiasm for Hillary among some former Bernie Sanders supporters and other progressives. In a close election this important that could mean disaster.
Photo: AP
-- via my feedly newsfeed
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"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."- Einstein"I don't believe in false modesty. A woman only hurts herself that way. If she's coy she's denying herself an important part of life."- Marilyn Monroe
